Michelle Hsu simplifies marketing

TL;DR

Michelle went from B2B SaaS marketer to freelance copywriter and marketing coach.

She knows the importance of authentic networking, the time it takes to build client relationships, and the need for empathy in marketing.

That’s why we talked about:

• misconceptions of success in the online space
• the challenges of personal health in business
• the significance of rest periods in entrepreneurship
• awareness and problem-solving in personal growth
• redefining success on your own terms
• corporate burnout
• the power of community in supporting solopreneurs

And, of course, we share our tips for simplifying marketing:

• how to systematize content creation while maintaining a sense of personal expression
• authenticity in marketing
• creative expression in content creation
• the significance of personal connections in marketing strategies
• collaboration among creatives
• the power of effective headlines in marketing
• simplifying tools for productivity

We’re really emphasizing experimentation in finding your voice and the need to let go of societal expectations surrounding success.

Listen:

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Transcript

Rachel Meltzer (00:01.656) Okay, cool. Okay, so why don't you start by just introducing yourself, who you are, what you do, and what you like to do for adventure, if anything.

Michelle (00:14.206) Okay, you'll have to remind me, but hi everyone, I'm Michelle. I used to be a B2B SaaS marketer for around eight years. And now I'm actually a freelance copywriter for B2B SaaS companies, mainly in the health and wellness space and also a marketing coach for other heart-led solopreneurs, as I like to call them. And I would say for adventure, I haven't gone on adventure in a while, but I used to like going hiking. But like the low-

Rachel Meltzer (00:16.216) Okay.

Michelle (00:43.634) I feel like when I say that my friends would be like, you don't really hike. But it's like going on trails. I don't do like the six hour hike. That's not for me. I do like nature.

Rachel Meltzer (00:46.691) Hahaha

Rachel Meltzer (00:51.576) Yeah. But you do a lot of, you do a lot of traveling too.

Michelle (00:56.798) Yeah, I do want to do more because like a couple years ago I was in Japan and that was for a wedding and I was also well I think I've been traveling for weddings like I was in Japan and I was in Cabo in Mexico. I want to go to Japan next year though. It'll be so nice because I just love I love Asian food. Well, I also love Japanese food. Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (01:10.54) Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (01:19.3) Same, same, yeah. Okay, let's talk about, you spent eight years doing B2B marketing. How did you get into that and why did you leave?

Michelle (01:32.072) How did I get into that? I would say in, actually in university, I just studied the, I don't know what the States is like, because I'm in Canada, but for us, when I study like management and marketing in university, was more, it's more so prepping you to go into things like PNG, Unilever, like the traditional CPG companies, brand management stuff. But then, I don't know, somehow in me, I was like more of a digital, are we the digital native generation? But like, I was like,

Rachel Meltzer (01:53.338) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (02:00.974) think so. Yeah.

Michelle (02:02.108) I like to figure things out, so guess self-taught digital marketing. then, so when I left, when I graduated from university, I was like, okay, let me find more of like a digital marketing role. And then it's through, to be honest, in my whole career, I never really officially throw resumes. It's through like coffee chats and just talking to people or like referrals. And that's how I built it, built it all up. So I feel like in human design, I'm like a four one.

Rachel Meltzer (02:26.426) Mm-hmm.

Michelle (02:32.252) And so it makes so much more sense now, like my opportunities in general, even like freelance clients or like coaching clients, it's all like through people, like it's people I know. this is why even as a marketer, I'm just like, this mostly on social does not work for me. you know, I just need. Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (02:50.554) I think for you, I mean, the more I talk to you, the more I realize like you are such a community person. And that's why you love things like Flow Club or coffee chats or in-person things, because you are able to like make a genuine connection with a single person or a few people. And then they connect you with people and you all.

Michelle (03:03.388) Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (03:15.128) I mean, that's what networking is at the end of the day, but I think a lot of us think of networking as this like stiff, like business focused thing that we do. But I feel like you look at networking as like a holistic, like, how can we help each other? How can we support each other? Hey, do you want to talk about this thing? Hey, can we solve each other's problems? And it doesn't have to always be a business exchange.

Michelle (03:16.318) Mm-hmm.

Michelle (03:34.644) my gosh, know, Kristen, you talk to Kristen. Hi Kristen. But she literally was like, you need to do a workshop or a master class on authentic networking. I was like, what the heck is that? was just like, your connection vibes and your networking, it doesn't even feel like you're just literally just talking to someone and you're making a new friend. I was like, isn't that what it's all about? Like, and then there's calls where people are just like so.

Rachel Meltzer (03:37.87) Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (03:45.497) Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (03:54.606) Yeah, you're just making friends. Yeah!

Michelle (04:02.672) amazed that sometimes like, I can connect you with this person and it's just we just met but I'm just that person right because I'm not like, I connect a racial with this one person so then she can do this for me. I'm just like, I cannot do that. It's not innate in me. So maybe this is another sign. It's like I should do that workshop.

Rachel Meltzer (04:16.098) Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (04:22.01) I think it's important, I wonder too, I know you're not like doing coffee chats strategically, but I wonder if there's a numbers game in it where just like how I'm like sending connection requests and follow up messages on LinkedIn, it's a numbers game. How I end up getting clients out of it. Like how many coffee chats are you doing that at a time, like in a month or something? And then what does that look like a few months later as far as like your client load, you know?

Michelle (04:50.6) That's so interesting. guess I never, maybe I should go back and calculate that, but.

Rachel Meltzer (04:55.616) I wonder, because you have it in your calendar, right?

Michelle (04:59.236) Yeah, because for example, Kristen, right? She actually recently introduced a new client. It was a one-off. The client needs to do her own thing first. But I know Kristen through Flow Club. And I know Kristen three years ago-ish. So it's like, how the heck would I know? Just like me wanting to get to know someone because they're cool on Flow Club would turn into, hey, I have a bunch of friends and one of them probably is a good fit. And I was just like, OK, cool.

Rachel Meltzer (05:02.33) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (05:09.402) Mm.

Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (05:21.38) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (05:25.913) Yeah.

Michelle (05:28.414) And then I was literally telling that same person, I was like, this is kind of how maybe how we should rethink marketing because it's like she was trying to tell me about a funnel and I was helping her with some like copywriting stuff. And I was just like, but what if we don't need to do all of that? I think that's also my sales side because I used to do account based marketing in B2B SaaS. And that's very like a targeted marketing programs where like a small list of target companies like

Rachel Meltzer (05:36.015) Mm.

Rachel Meltzer (05:45.027) Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (05:49.23) Mm-hmm.

Michelle (05:58.364) that we're going after. And so working with sales, my mentality got to a point where it's like, how do we do a lot of high quality touch points, but like not like 20 steps, right? Because a lot of people that online are teaching you like, you got to have a big funnel, like get people in and then they go down and I'm just like, that's already like 20 steps. But like I literally, well, I guess I nurtured my relationship with Kristin and then that took three years.

Rachel Meltzer (06:06.426) Mm.

Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (06:19.736) Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (06:27.155) Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michelle (06:28.124) But literally intro, person liked it, and then we got on call. Like she paid for a session.

Rachel Meltzer (06:32.73) But I think time is a huge factor. It's really hard to predict how long it's going to take from when you connect with somebody to when they become your client or your business partner or someone who refers you, right? Like you can't predict that, but generally it's like somewhere between six months and two years for me. That's.

Michelle (06:45.736) Mm-hmm.

Michelle (06:51.73) Mmm.

Rachel Meltzer (06:52.276) usually what it works out to. And now I know that that's very helpful, but when you first start out, you're just like, I need to get clients now, where do I get them, who's gonna talk to me, I don't know, you know? And it feels really urgent and pressure, and it feels like if you don't get a conversion in your first six months or your first three months that like.

this is not viable and it's never gonna work out. And that's not actually true. People take so long. Like I'll see the same TikTok ad. I've talked about this so many times on the podcast. I've seen the same TikTok ad for the same pants for the past fucking year straight. And I just bought them last week, you know? like, things take time. People need to see things and hear things and feel things so many times in so many different ways. So when something's not working, how can you just like reframe it and try it a different way?

Michelle (07:39.696) Mm-hmm. my gosh such a good mentality. That's like something I need cuz like we were talking earlier before Recording I was like, my gosh as a marketer like how do I not have things figured out? Like sometimes there's that guilt because I'm just like I used to do so great in like corporate environment I'm like, do I not know how to be a marketer?

Rachel Meltzer (07:51.483) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (08:02.155) I think it's different too, because you're, think you expect, we think that there is a formula, there is a right way to do everything. And specific people who look successful to us from the outside know it and must be using it and must have all the answers and they have a point and it's perfect, right? And that is not true. That's not the truth. It's never been the truth. It's just a story we tell ourselves because it makes us

Michelle (08:16.35) No.

Michelle (08:22.227) Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (08:29.476) feel better about being stuck, right? But in reality, like maybe for you, launching doesn't look like sending an email series and making a bunch of posts on social media. Maybe for you, launching actually looks like just doing a ton of coffee chats, like as many coffee chats as you can and seeing where it leans, you know?

Michelle (08:31.847) Yeah.

Michelle (08:48.39) It's always so funny to hear things coming back from you because I'm like, isn't this the kind of concepts I teach my clients to? And I'm just like, I forget.

Rachel Meltzer (08:55.618) You do, you do, but here's the thing, you can't really coach yourself, you know? It's so easy to forget these things. You need a mirror, you know?

Michelle (09:04.373) UGH

I need to just pretend I'm talking to Rachel.

Rachel Meltzer (09:09.21) I do the same thing. I'll be like, what would Michelle do? Or what would Marie do? But I think it's also on that same vein of like, we think other people know what's right or that there is a perfect framework, right way to do something. That's that like comparison thing going on in our brain. Comparison is the thief of joy, right? But we have these like preconceived notions about who someone is because of their online presence.

Michelle (09:15.814) Yeah

Michelle (09:23.912) Mm-hmm.

Michelle (09:32.318) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (09:38.562) and we put them on a pedestal and we look at them and like make these assumptions about them. Like all of their launches are successful or they're a really good salesperson or whatever. We were talking about how like you found out recently someone that you looked up to that you follow actually was like faking it till they make it when it's having a really hard time. And like when you're struggling, you look at these people who are successful and you think, why am I not like them?

Michelle (10:05.948) Yeah

Rachel Meltzer (10:06.03) but you're not looking at the fact that you're doing like 20 different things and that person was singularly focused on a specific goal or that that person had privilege. I recently found out someone I really look up to had like a massive inheritance and it didn't matter what they earned from their business. They were still able to support themselves and obviously like for retirement purposes and like ideally their business should be making money and they want to be making money, but they were like,

Yeah, I mean, it's no big deal. can be like choosy about my projects now because this came through for me and it's really great. And I was just sitting there like, I have never had that privilege. I feel like I never will. My partner like paid for my cat's vet bill the other day and I literally cried. I felt so bad about it because it was so much money. For me, it was such a big deal. It was so much money. It was so stressful and I couldn't afford it.

And he was just like, yeah, no worries. I'll just pay for it. She's my cat, too. We live together. I love her so much. And I was just like, and we have all these stories about what other people are doing. What money means to us is not what money means to them. What success means to us is not what success means to them. There's no perfect picture, right?

Michelle (11:21.918) I think that's like, you know, when people, this is the thing I have with like authenticity or vulnerability because the things we see even on LinkedIn, the creators we both mutually would look up, not look up to, but we know of. It's like, I'm not trying to discredit them. I just think some parts of it are so curated that you already can sense, but people, most people might not know that. There's more of us calling it out now, but I'm just like, most people just feel like,

Rachel Meltzer (11:42.223) Yes.

Rachel Meltzer (11:47.546) Mm-hmm.

Michelle (11:51.654) you know, that is they forget the privilege, they forget where they started and all and what the resources they have, right? Or even like, let's say inheritance. And those things make a difference. And also, like, are they going to therapy? Are they doing all these things? Like I'm going through my own health thing we were talking about, right?

Rachel Meltzer (11:56.174) Mm.

Mm. Mm.

Rachel Meltzer (12:08.558) Yeah, are they having chronic, like I have two chronic health conditions. I'm doing all of this through that. That adds another hurdle, right?

Michelle (12:12.571) Yeah!

Michelle (12:18.856) And that's something I feel like it's not widely talked about but I feel like should be more normalized is like because I guess another problem I have with this industry, the industry we're all in is that if you're not consistent or if you're not doing things, you're like lazy, you're not doing, it's like all these negative things and then you already like I'm dealing with a lot of things personally and professionally. You're like this is making me worse but then

Rachel Meltzer (12:30.393) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (12:34.959) Mm.

Rachel Meltzer (12:39.653) Mm-hmm.

Michelle (12:46.302) You know, this is they say, they're like, you need poke at people's pain points and like sell the solution. But this is why I have problems with even that kind of marketing methodology, because I'm just like, sometimes you're triggering someone's nervous system.

Rachel Meltzer (12:46.362) Mm.

Rachel Meltzer (12:50.266) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (12:55.556) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (12:59.342) Yeah, yeah, like this is why empathy marketing is so important. Like I've gotten so many ads, again, for the pants, about how it'll like cover up your tummy and how it will make you like snatched or whatever. And I'm like having body image problems, because I've gained a lot of weight the past couple years because of my stupid health conditions. And it's like uncontro, I mean, it's not uncontrollable, but it feels like it is sometimes. But those things like.

Michelle (13:03.742) Hello.

Michelle (13:20.158) Mm-hmm.

Michelle (13:23.752) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (13:26.21) are people poking at your pain points, whereas what would have been so much better for me is if someone was like, these pants are super comfortable, they're not gonna cut into your stomach and you'll actually be able to sit down in them. That would have made me happier because I buy all these pants and I'm like, these will make me look hot. And then I put them on, I'm like, these are uncomfortable as fuck, I'm never gonna wear them again.

Michelle (13:37.799) Yeah.

Michelle (13:46.874) Is this like, I recently, I've been hearing more words because people are like, you, they're trying to play her back to me, like what I do. they're like, it's more like authentic marketing, heart led marketing. And I was just like, is that just what it is? Maybe people are tired of, you know, the urgency, the hustle, the like pain, like all these kinds of things I used to learn also in corporate and like tech marketing, right?

Rachel Meltzer (13:57.55) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (14:06.97) Mm.

Rachel Meltzer (14:10.968) Yeah. I think there's also like an aspirational veil. they're what we think we want, like we want to move to New York City or we want to make a hundred thousand dollars or this or that. Like I saw someone, I actually just had a consultation yesterday with somebody and I was evaluating their sales page for them. And one of the things she had on it was that she made a hundred thousand dollars a year and that she had hit like $5 million revenue or whatever. And that that's super rare for like

Michelle (14:15.71) Mmm, yes.

Rachel Meltzer (14:40.986) female owned businesses that are smaller than a team of 10 or something like that. And I was like, yeah, that is true, but what does that mean? Is that like $100,000 in revenue? And she was like, yeah. And I was like, okay, cool, but what does that actually mean? What were your expenses? You had subcontractors that you were paying. You didn't actually make $100,000. And when we think of making $100,000, that's income after taxes. That's money that we can actually spend, right?

In reality, if you take away all of the expenses and all of the taxes, this person made like maybe 70K, right? And that's fine. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with making that much money. The wrongness is the claim of I made 100K. And it's not incorrect. That was 100K gross revenue. But it sort of creates this like misconception because most people who are getting into solopreneurship have never...

Michelle (15:18.302) Mmm.

Michelle (15:30.416) Yes.

Rachel Meltzer (15:38.862) had to think about like, okay, so 20 % of this is gonna end up going to taxes and then I'm also gonna have to pay for all this software and then I might pay a subcontractor and then at the end of the day, here's what I'm gonna be left with. We think of it like a paycheck, like I get 100K a year after taxes, that's probably 90 or 80, whatever. And then, and same with like the veiled misconception of like, I have 5,000 followers. Like what the fuck does that even mean? You know, or like I made,

Michelle (15:49.139) Yeah.

Michelle (16:07.345) It's-

Rachel Meltzer (16:08.33) I had like a $10,000 lunch. What does that mean? Did you sell three products? Did you sell 500 products? Like these people make these broad claims and they're very aspirational is what we're looking to do for ourselves. So we get hooked, but then on the other side of it, we're like, this doesn't apply to me at all.

Michelle (16:25.256) feel like this goes in tandem with, you probably see those like, you, something about, it's like with limiting beliefs, like if you don't want to make more, you have a limiting belief. Or like you can quantum leap or manifest into a million dollars and all of these things are just like, what? Like what if I'm okay with just a hundred K a year? Or maybe even less than, right? Because it's, again, I actually tell my clients this too, I'm just like,

Rachel Meltzer (16:34.564) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (16:43.834) you

Rachel Meltzer (16:47.416) Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle (16:53.618) Let's make sure you cover your monthly expenses as your first sales target and then like post sorry, post revenue and then some of after tax stuff. then we can start thinking, you want to go traveling? you want to save for your kids' college funds? Then let's tack on another 5k. Versus like I need to go from zero to 100k right away. I'm just like how much pressure and health is that going to cost you? Right. We forget about that because people telling you to like

Rachel Meltzer (17:09.794) Mm. Mm.

Michelle (17:22.43) you can do this in your sleep. I'm just like, you're literally their product. That's how they're making money.

Rachel Meltzer (17:27.076) Yeah, yeah. It's just like how if something is free, your attention is usually the price, right?

Michelle (17:33.99) Yeah, so it's, I think now I heard in the States, is it FTC? Like it's getting a crackdown on these revenue like claims. You can't really use that anymore. So I think that's a...

Rachel Meltzer (17:42.618) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we'll see how it goes. But yeah, like the thing about all these FTC regulations is like, are they actually going to be enforced? You know, especially with all these like teeny tiny coaches. But yeah, it's not something that I think should be if you are going to use something like that. And I'm not like I'm a person who will literally post like this is how I make a cake gross. A month and but then I post like

Michelle (17:54.96) Yeah

Michelle (18:09.726) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (18:11.148) each client, how much they pay me, how long the contract is, how much I paid in taxes, how much my software cost is. And then at the end I'm like, this is how much I'm actually taking home, this is what it actually looks like. Because I don't want people to have the wrong idea. I got into freelancing because I wanted to live a more independent life, I wanted freedom, I wanted to be able to travel, and I hoped I could make enough money as I made as a barista, which is a really fucking low bar.

Michelle (18:18.739) Yeah.

Michelle (18:27.539) Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (18:39.61) But I think a lot of people see freelancing as a way to expand their income. And it's true. I tripled my barista income in less than three months of freelancing full time. And that's amazing. And it's so nice. And that's income. That's after taxes. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to happen right away for everybody. And it should not be the only reason. If money is the only reason you're doing anything, you're not going to have a good time.

Michelle (18:48.894) you

Rachel Meltzer (19:08.974) Let me tell you, it's not gonna go well for you.

Michelle (19:11.71) This is so reminiscent because you just had that, forgot her name, but the personal finance woman who came in. Allison, I literally was like, I don't have any... Love it. Okay. Because I was just like, I think I was the only one being like, I don't have all these other things I need to take care of. And I'm not getting married anytime soon, getting a house, getting a car, because I might want a digital nomad. So I can try that out.

Rachel Meltzer (19:19.126) Allison, Allison Cade? Yeah. She's coming back to pop club in February. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (19:39.529) Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Michelle (19:41.288) So I don't have anything like societal like, you need to save money for this and save. So I'm just like, I think I remember saying like group calls, like, I don't know what I'm making money for. And I know that's a big privilege, right? And I acknowledge that. But at the same time, I'm just like, but I want to help people. I'm just like, but I also need to like, I could just afford my rent. It's like, it's fine. But it's just like, it would be nice if there was income coming, continuous income coming through. And

Rachel Meltzer (19:51.246) Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle (20:08.446) Think now this is why I'm in my resting period. I'm trying to things out. It's like what am I doing? like this goes this is why I feel like I said on my sub stack like people don't realize business building is like a Meditative practice. It's like a journey inward. What life do you want? What lifestyle like who are you? Like all these like all these other things right and it's really

Rachel Meltzer (20:13.87) Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (20:22.798) Yeah, it is.

Rachel Meltzer (20:28.686) Yeah. And like, what are your hangups about money? What are your hangups about your self-worth? Like, are you equating our self-worth to your work? Or like, before you were in corporate, you got praise from your job. You don't get praise as a freelancer. That is not talked about enough. No one is out here. I have one client who has given me praise. Thank you, Sean. Thank you so much. But like, that's it. The one guy, you know?

Michelle (20:38.27) It's a-

Michelle (20:41.661) Yes.

Michelle (20:50.945) haha

Michelle (20:55.806) think it depends on the company. Mine has been really nice because they really appreciate it. Because I feel like I do a lot more for them though because I feel it's I think that's the thing with me as a copywriter because I also used to do so many different roles in marketing. I'm like, okay, so what is your demand strategy or content strategy? Let's figure out how this versus they literally

Rachel Meltzer (21:11.577) Mm.

Rachel Meltzer (21:16.59) You're your own scope creep, because you want everything to work together so well. Yeah.

Michelle (21:20.25) Yeah, I literally they just want a blog post and then here I am like planning their whole thing. So I feel like people who work with me always feel like it's a what's it called bang for their buck. They get so much value. I'm like their strategic partner. That's why it's like we've been together for so long.

Rachel Meltzer (21:30.262) Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (21:34.776) I feel like you're, have you marketed yourself as a fractional CMO yet?

Michelle (21:40.542) Honestly, I go up against the ones who are ex-CMOs. So I kind of left that path. But yes, a lot of people are like, you're just like a fractional CMO who can do so many things. I'm just like, yeah. But as a copywriter.

Rachel Meltzer (21:43.886) hahahaha

Rachel Meltzer (21:51.246) That's what you're doing, yeah. my God. Yeah, yeah. I think, okay wait, there's two things I wanna talk about before we get past them. Let's come back to the CMO idea though. But you just said something that I think is important to touch on. You said this is why I'm in my rest period right now. I don't think anybody really, I mean not anybody, but I don't think a lot of people are talking about how this is a thing in life in general.

Michelle (22:09.886) Mmm.

Rachel Meltzer (22:20.45) Earth does it, we have seasons, right? We don't think about the fact that our business has seasons. Our business has busy periods and rest periods. Our bodies get burnt out and then we need to rest. And it's this sort of roller coaster. Our income as freelancers does the same thing. There are ebbs and flows and waves. And I think it's so important to be okay with that. Like we are never going to have a consistent, like we're making the same amount of money every month. We have the same amount of work every month. We have, you know,

Michelle (22:22.983) Yes

Rachel Meltzer (22:50.112) nothing is going to look the same all the time and be like, you can find stability and you can escape the feast famine cycle and you don't necessarily need to be overbooked or underbooked and like yo-yoing. But I do think that there is this like misconception or desire to like find a perfect, to like arrive at like the perfect business, the perfect income, the perfect workload, whatever.

Michelle (23:02.622) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (23:15.21) And it's just not realistic. Like we all need rest periods. And I love that you are openly talking about your rest period and that you're taking it for, you're trying really hard to take it for yourself.

Michelle (23:28.638) think it's a lot of deconditioning. I'm just coming to terms that I still have corporate habits that's hard to... that's been a bit... I thought I broke them, but you know, like the universe is like, did you actually? So it's...

Rachel Meltzer (23:43.386) Well, it's a practice, you know, right? Like you can.

Michelle (23:47.794) But we were talking about problem solving. Being a problem solver, it's like, how come I haven't figured this out? How come this problem is not going away? Why is it coming back? And then you go in this loop of being disappointed and frustrated and overwhelmed with yourself. And then you just like, OK, whatever. I'm going to brush past it. Like sweep it under the rug and let's move on. And it comes back to bite you. I don't know if you were like been reading all my monthly recast on Substax, but

Rachel Meltzer (23:50.208) Yes.

Michelle (24:15.514) Literally my friends were like, you know, you've been like sick almost every month this year And like what if you just actually rest it for a month like don't touch don't post content Don't do anything just like do whatever you want like live life and maybe you'll feel a lot better than that Mode and I was like these days I was thinking like why did I go into that pattern? I'm like, that's literally what I used to do in corporate because You don't get that many sick days. Yeah

Rachel Meltzer (24:20.441) Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (24:24.196) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (24:40.782) Yeah. You were expected to.

Michelle (24:44.614) And then if you run out those, you use personal days. And if you run out of those, you use maybe vacation days. And then you're just like, you can't get sick. You know, even if you're sick, unless you're like, you have to lay in bed, you're kind of still working. Right? And I'm just like, dang, I thought I broke that pattern.

Rachel Meltzer (24:49.85) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (24:57.892) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (25:03.246) Yeah, yeah, it's really, it is a practice. Like you can break the pattern, but then you're not to break it again. But each time you break it, it gets easier, right? And that's what practice is, you know? Yeah, yeah, you always have to notice things before you can fix them. But here's the other thing we were talking about earlier before we started recording.

Michelle (25:14.034) Yeah, I think it's awareness. The awareness starts first.

Rachel Meltzer (25:25.854) You and I are very solution oriented people. This is why when we get on calls with each other and we talk about our problems, we usually find a solution together because that's what we love to do. Right. And in our personal lives, I experienced this too. We want to solve every problem right away. We want to fix everything, but there are some things you cannot solve right away. Some things take time, just like building relationships for business takes time. sometimes you're just not going to know the answer right away. Some things.

just need time, like I was like, why am I not going to the gym every week? What the fuck is wrong with me that I can't just consistently go work out? Every time I leave the gym, I feel better. Like I'm doing it to feel better. It's not about like the fact that I wanna lose weight or get stronger or whatever. It's literally just a habit because I know that I feel better afterward. I couldn't figure it out. And then I realized this week, the past three weeks I've gone to the gym four days a week and I'm so proud of myself. And I realized I finally got it.

Michelle (26:05.854) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (26:23.374) because I had other things under control that I was also working on. Like the most important thing for me the past like six months was figuring out how to control my blood sugar because it was affecting every ounce of every day of my health, of my energy, and it was important. It's really hard to change your entire diet. Like this is something you do three to six times a day, eat. And you have to figure out what you're eating and like find a new system.

Michelle (26:28.327) you

Michelle (26:35.902) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (26:48.846) because whether we know it or not, our eating habits are systems that we can create for ourselves, right? So I was so focused on that, I moved in with my partner. I'm like changing the way I'm doing my business. Like I got a dog, everything is changing. Why would I expect myself to be able to change 17 different habits at once? Like spend a month fixing one thing and then other things will fall into place. If it's a priority for you, if it's bothering you, you will figure it out.

But that doesn't mean you have to figure it out instantly. And that has been such a hard lesson to learn.

Michelle (27:23.816) I think that's such a good reminder because I feel like I'm trying to change everything in my life. You know that movie everywhere and like all at once? just like feel like the mom. I'm just like why? And then people, but then again, this is another corporate thing because I'm so used to that. Like I owe people, when I tell people I'm managing six different social channels, I'm launching a three month program, I'm doing all, I'm,

Rachel Meltzer (27:29.434) You

Yeah, everything all at once.

You

Rachel Meltzer (27:44.686) Mm-hmm.

Michelle (27:53.018) doing my food healing journey and all of these things and I'm just like that's nothing because like in the corporate world you're doing way more things you're talking to so many different stakeholders you're managing expectations there's maybe politics you know it but then I'm just like but that's why I burnt out that's why I burnt out so I'm just like why am I trying to read

Rachel Meltzer (28:03.45) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (28:10.456) Yah, yah.

I think it's also your expectations for yourself. Like your human design type, you are a high achiever, right? You wanna overachieve and you are like vastly overachieving. You know how many social channels I promote my shit on? Two.

and then I do email marketing. That's it. I guess YouTube three. Okay, sorry, sorry, sorry. Go ahead.

Michelle (28:31.752) But here's

But you're not-

But I think it's because you nail down a system. And I think you don't bog down on like, sorry. you don't get bogged down on, okay, so I'm creating this content. You probably like, sometimes you see stuff on the pop log, right? And then you just literally copy and paste and rephrase it for LinkedIn and things like that. I think maybe there's, and there's no right or wrong in this. I've been thinking about this a lot. I might write a sub stack post too.

Rachel Meltzer (28:42.169) Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (28:48.526) No, you're good.

Rachel Meltzer (28:56.602) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Michelle (29:06.366) where I'm thinking more like an artist. Where like, do I want to do oil painting today or do I want to do pottery or do I want to do sculpture? Like, you know, so I see like all these social media platforms as mediums, like canvases, right? So I'm just like, what do I want to talk about today and which way would it be like, which platform would best convey my message? And that's what

Rachel Meltzer (29:06.458) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (29:11.738) Mm.

Rachel Meltzer (29:18.958) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (29:28.238) I love that as long as you're not feeling spread too thin and stressed out, you know?

Michelle (29:33.19) And that's where I'm trying to figure it out because I think what was also happening was I felt too limited, like on a soul level, like just pick one lane and pick one topic and pick and build a building audience on one platform. I was actually talking to someone, the same person yesterday and she's like, it's all part of an experimentation, it or like an experiment, experience on earth.

Rachel Meltzer (29:41.698) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (29:49.647) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (29:56.634) HODLing.

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (30:00.55) What do you want to experience today? If your soul wants to play in all these different things, go ahead. Right? But like, like you said, maybe it's not tiring going down the route of burnout, but it's also satisfying that creative expression within yourself. Like I think to me, to be honest, now I'm in a state like these days where I create content in the lens of I'm just sharing knowledge, kind of what you do too. Like you're at that state, right? And that's why it's so easy to put out content.

Rachel Meltzer (30:05.848) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (30:15.418) Mm.

Rachel Meltzer (30:26.272) Yeah.

Michelle (30:30.072) And I just feel like, I can post this on Instagram. Right now doing the 30 days challenge again. So now I'm back on threads posting a Mandarin and I'm going to repurpose that into sub stack notes and then maybe LinkedIn posts. And I felt so like it's so less stressful and I'm slowly figuring out the system that kind of system that works for me, but also feels liberating because what I'm realizing even when I was talking to my past clients is that they might be writers.

Rachel Meltzer (30:36.867) Mm-mm-mm.

Rachel Meltzer (30:42.464) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (30:50.511) Mm-hmm.

Michelle (30:59.634) but they like maybe short form and long form, but then if they want to pick one, they also get paralyzed.

Rachel Meltzer (31:06.17) Yeah, think there's a, there's, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think there's sort of two things that I've noticed about myself that I've worked on a lot over the past like four or five years that I've really been actually doing content marketing. And, cause I think I used to feel the same way as you where it was like a form of self-expression. What I've realized now, actually I think I figured this out through the artist way. I like to separate.

Michelle (31:08.646) It's like the art of redistribution. Like, repurposing.

Rachel Meltzer (31:35.96) So I have my business and then I have self-expression as a separate thing. I do self-expression through my business, but the reason my shit is so systemized and it feels like I've clicked in and I figured it out is because I experimented and then I analyzed the data. So like I experimented with LinkedIn for a year, I analyzed the data, I figured out what worked, what didn't. That's why I talk about the topics I do.

Michelle (31:41.758) Mmm.

Rachel Meltzer (32:04.078) That's why I host the free workshops I do because it's what resonated with people. It's what people needed the most. It's what brought people in the door. And that's the reason I use LinkedIn and not Instagram, which I used to use, right? I used to be on Instagram, TikTok, Pinterest, YouTube, and Twitter, and LinkedIn. And it was just way too much for me. I wanted to pick the most effective path and just master that.

Michelle (32:10.014) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (32:30.84) And so that's what I've done and now I'm kind of adding little things back in. Like I'm starting to use Pinterest a little bit more now. I'm starting to use YouTube more and it's great, but it feels so much more focused and targeted and effective because I know what I'm doing and I have a clear message. Whereas before I was just kind of sharing absolutely everything. I would post on Instagram stories like once an hour and it would be like personal shit, business shit, self-expression shit, quotes that I liked. And it was just like way fucking too much.

Whereas now my personal self-expression is not a part of my business anymore. It's like I doodle and procreate and I create like little cartoons for the covers of potential romance novels I wanna write. Or like I go to Barnes and Noble and get magazines and I make collages. Or I go to like an artist group or I make videos for fun but I never post them. Or I make music loops at home and I never actually share them.

Michelle (33:23.774) Mmm.

Rachel Meltzer (33:27.226) No one, I have like an entire folder of loops of me playing the flute in like techno and like dance and stuff. And it's so fun for me to make, they'll probably never see the light of day. And the artist way really convinced me to start doing these things for myself. And like, have, I have like five romance novels started and I probably will finish all of them and maybe I'll publish them when I'm like 40 or 50 and I'm no longer like leaning on my brand so much for my income, but like.

Michelle (33:34.014) That's cute.

Rachel Meltzer (33:56.734) I used to want to use my business as self-expression, but then my business took over my life and I got so burnt out and it wasn't fun anymore. I fucking hate Instagram now. And making cute videos for Instagram used to be the highlight of my day. And it's just not anymore, you know?

Michelle (34:06.686) Mm-hmm.

Michelle (34:10.782) Mm-hmm.

I maybe self-expression, I'm not trying to divide self-expression to two more things, but I just feel like when you were describing that, like, I think about that is more like personal life, not personal, like hobbies, interests, like all these things. I guess I also think of it as the inclusion of what are my thoughts on white privilege or like community building or marketing. Like that's also expressing of thought.

Rachel Meltzer (34:20.272) Hahaha!

Rachel Meltzer (34:26.612) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (34:37.485) Yeah.

Michelle (34:42.854) and somewhat tied to business and marketing or whatever it is. But you're so right. But I do feel like maybe I need to create something where no one's gonna see the light of day because I'm like, I've been like binge watching, like not binge watching, just I'm into like K dramas again, or like Korean reality shows, like culinary class wars, which is so good. Everyone should go watch it. Or like ancient Chinese palace dramas, like things like that.

Rachel Meltzer (34:43.095) Yeah.

Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (35:01.794) Ha ha ha.

Rachel Meltzer (35:08.548) Mm-hmm.

Michelle (35:10.278) I'm just like, I want to share that somewhere because that part of me is not getting satisfied right now either. So I'm like, is it? It's probably not going to be on self-sabotage or whatever, but I...

Rachel Meltzer (35:16.952) Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (35:20.954) think it's kind of like that principle of, when a sculptor is sculpting in stone, they say they're finding the sculpture in the rock. They're not forming the rock into the sculpture. It's like that, like you're sort of here with like a big stone, which is like all the different media that you wanna share your feelings and thoughts on, and you just haven't found the clear message you haven't found. And the only way to find those things is experimenting, you know?

Michelle (35:30.927) Michelle (35:47.314) think it's also, I don't know what your thoughts are on this, is that they're all sides of you. I think I'm trying to let go of compartmentalizing as well. Because I guess I was having difficulty being a certain way. And that's why my early days on my Instagram was more like calm and serenity. It feels like I'm doing guided meditation, like I'm a teacher or something. And then I'm like...

Rachel Meltzer (35:53.87) Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (36:11.578) You

Michelle (36:14.61) There's this passion inside of me, right? Like today. And then my clients would just be like, holy crap, you're so different from your Instagram. But in a good way. But like, there's so many different sides of us, right? Whether it's personality, vibes, interests, and all of this. And I think it's a culmination of all of those things that eventually you attract the people who are attracted to the different sides of you. I see it also like,

Rachel Meltzer (36:16.568) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (36:21.299) Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (36:28.602) Mm-hmm.

Michelle (36:41.712) these platforms, these expressions or content pieces as kind of like people have different portals to access your world versus I guess I was seeing it as if I only do LinkedIn and talk about this one topic blah blah they see me through one lens and I'm only going to get one kind of person as extreme as it is and that might work for some people and I think it's because the more I've talked to even like the Taiwanese creators right

Rachel Meltzer (36:50.436) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (36:55.695) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (36:59.596) Mmm, yeah.

Michelle (37:10.968) Some of them like the health coach i'm working with for example Let me tell you he has no funnel He has no master class workshops or whatever and you know why I got like I decided to buy from him is because I saw his stuff well because I follow other creators and they tagged him I like who is this dude? And this is like some mid-40s dude talking about he literally like had depression Was started a business failed. I'm just like why would you say all of these things? and it makes

Rachel Meltzer (37:14.426) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (37:25.966) Mm-hmm.

Michelle (37:40.11) Usually people were just like, why would you want to work with something like that? But because I have a basic knowledge of like TCM, Chinese traditional Chinese medicine, I started reading into his things. I'm like, this guy knows his stuff. But then when I looked at his Instagram page, it's all talking about like, not really spiritual things, but it talks about the brain and our heart brain is playing games with us. All these things that I've been thinking about, he's talking about, there's nothing about this is how you

Rachel Meltzer (37:43.47) Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (37:47.256) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (37:52.73) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (38:02.074) Mm-hmm.

Michelle (38:08.668) I'm doing this food healing thing. There's nothing about that. And like he only has one Instagram highlight about his program and it's a bit vague.

Rachel Meltzer (38:11.45) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (38:14.922) Mm-hmm. I mean, this is like the power of personal, of references and like networking, right? This is like the perfect example of it.

Michelle (38:22.632) But it's also, I think it's also what if I didn't, I've been thinking like, what if I just natural, because you know, algorithm will just push things. But you know how they're like, your Instagram page is, I always tell my clients, your Instagram page is your storefront. If you're going to his storefront, it's like, so is he a spiritual teacher or what? Like, and like a fitness coach too. But then his only, he only has a Google form for you to register to partake in this one-on-one program. I'm just like,

Rachel Meltzer (38:30.937) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (38:42.551) Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (38:50.991) Mm-hmm.

Michelle (38:52.19) and was like 800 Canadian, something like that. So was not like cheap, but it's not like super expensive. And I just still paid for it. I literally did not go through a funnel. And I like, he barely had testimonials. It was a bit of a risk. So I was just like.

Rachel Meltzer (38:54.938) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (39:00.11) Yeah. Yeah.

Well, that's like, if you imagine his storefront, you're just walking into like a little like meditation hut and he's just there to like chat with you about all these things that you relate to. And you're like, aren't we supposed to be meditating right now? And he's like, yeah, we'll get to it. Don't worry. And then he like continues to relate to you. And like, that's the sales pitch is like, he just has similar interests to you, but he knows a little bit more about this one thing and he's here to help, you know?

Michelle (39:29.47) But you know what's fascinating is I had a call, so you get to have these like one-on-one, like outside the food healing consultations, these one-on-ones. And I was like, you don't do marketing. As a marketer, I'm observing. He's like, I don't. I literally share whatever the heck I want. And then he's like, I think of it as playing my favorite piano piece. If you like, you'll stay. If you don't, you'll leave. I do not care. And he's like, to be honest, if I lost my Instagram, and he's like, I really hope more people unfollow me.

Rachel Meltzer (39:37.913) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (39:45.71) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (39:49.262) Mmm.

Michelle (39:58.462) I was just like, this is so fascinating because he's like, the only reason why I talk about these things and I attracted people like you is to use it as bait to actually tell you after this whole program is there's nothing wrong with you. You are already complete and whole. It's like a very meta thing. We can talk about it offline, but I was just like, that is so fascinating to me. Like he's like the business organically just happened because like his business.

Rachel Meltzer (39:58.938) you

you

Rachel Meltzer (40:13.73) Mmm.

Rachel Meltzer (40:17.687) Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (40:26.02) Mm-hmm.

Michelle (40:28.146) And I was just like, it's being exposed to these different kinds of how someone's building their business or marketing gives me inspiration that like what you said, there is no formula. Everyone does this slightly different, but the ones I've been seeing, at least in Asian market, it's like, it's you, you're just being you. Like you're not writing because of an end goal of this goes into a funnel, this goes into whatever. His things doesn't even have CTAs.

Rachel Meltzer (40:38.414) There's no right way. Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (40:48.718) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (40:54.602) Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Michelle (40:57.116) And he doesn't even reply to people. And if he does, he's like, he already made a, he's so funny. He wrote a post before he's saying like, I will, I won't reply to all of you. So all I'll do is give you hearts. Like as a comment. I was like, that is so funny to me. Like, it's just like, it's not, you don't have time to respond, but you have a time to give like hearts as an acknowledgement. You know, it's just.

Rachel Meltzer (41:12.567) Ha ha!

Rachel Meltzer (41:18.114) Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think also this is sort of that it's like that I say I installed a filter in my brain. I've been practicing a lot for me, not for me. Like if someone is for me, they'll stick around. If something is not for me, I unfollow or I don't respond or I block like this is not for me. This is for me. Right. And he seems to be doing that very well.

Michelle (41:32.892) Yes

Michelle (41:45.791) This totally reminded me and I'm so glad you brought this up because I was gonna bring up this guy too. well I only Ages ago when I started with my natural path, I think she was following this guy But then I don't know how it happened, but he starts popping up on my Instagram again. I never followed him I was like this guy looks familiar. It's like his Instagram handle is marketing for hippies and it is exactly what you but he's not like

Rachel Meltzer (41:56.612) Mm.

Rachel Meltzer (42:07.93) You

Michelle (42:11.614) Anyways, I think it's an experience yourself. I think it's very fun and very authentic and it's the same guy I shared in pop club about the Right and I was just telling my friends I was just like it's so cool I never saw the page that says about you and me this is Joe It's always about or about me and then his sub tab, right? It says are we a good fit? Or are you a good fit?

Rachel Meltzer (42:14.831) Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (42:19.928) Yeah, I thought that sounded familiar.

Rachel Meltzer (42:29.85) Mm.

Mmm.

Michelle (42:38.502) And then on it, you know, the typical like you are this, but not like that. He says it in different way. And then he's like, we share similar thoughts about these topics. He goes into politics, which is, I was like, holy crap. Like that's a very divisive thing. The economy, the global, the climate change things, like all these things, right? And I was just like, this guy's really like doing something different. And

Rachel Meltzer (42:42.787) Mm.

Rachel Meltzer (42:51.886) Wow, yeah, so rare. Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (43:04.762) Mm-hmm.

Michelle (43:06.374) And then I started reading his Instagram and I loved the way he put it because I guess we were, we both are doing similar things, but he put it, he calls it marketing should be a filter mechanism because it's all he's like, it's not about attracting. It's all about like these people will come and they, it's kind of like, I think about water filter. Like you're just trying to filter until it's the thing you want. Right. So he's like, don't be scared of getting everything away or.

Rachel Meltzer (43:12.868) Okay.

Rachel Meltzer (43:16.822) Mm-hmm, yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (43:27.712) Hahaha

Rachel Meltzer (43:31.81) Yeah.

Michelle (43:37.0) saying what's on your mind because if they're not going to click with you and you're going to find it out about it the hard way, like once they become your client. And I feel like we've been taught, like at least in the, when I used to work in tech, it's like, you've got to give little crumbs and then you got to keep it. And then, and then you go into a demo and then you go into the, I'm just like, no, let's just cut all that BS and just like.

Rachel Meltzer (43:39.033) Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Totally.

Rachel Meltzer (43:58.106) Mm.

This is why I just give it all away for free. I used to have a course, the Get Clients course. And now I do a distilled one hour version as a webinar for free. And I give away the guide. The guide used to be a PDF download that you had to like fill out a form, get an email, download the PDF, then you get access to it. Now it's a fucking Google doc. Like click the link, baby. Take it away. Duplicate it. Please don't distribute it. That's illegal. But like, yeah, feel free.

Michelle (44:06.628) Mmm!

Michelle (44:21.246) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (44:29.338) duplicate it, customize it, it's yours. That's gotten me so many more leads. It's bolstered my reputation. It has helped so many people get clients. And giving that much value away feels so much better to me than the bullshit of the whole breadcrumb trail that I had before and I was charging $95 for this course.

Michelle (44:53.598) And I think that's the other thing that, if we give all of this away, what if someone just never comes? But as I've heard from others, as I also learned from them, is that you will help people in different ways if you think of a pyramid, right? Those who get your free stuff and get so much value, you were there for that part of their journey. And then you move up a tier. Maybe they need more handholding. So maybe it's more group coaching.

Rachel Meltzer (45:07.765) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (45:14.638) Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (45:18.693) Mm-hmm. Need accountability. I think at the end of the day, even if they never become your clients, which so many of them don't, they become good referrals. Like, if they found value in it, they're going to share it. Yes. Yeah.

Michelle (45:19.666) And then maybe they need the BVVIP experience, just a one-on-one with Michelle and Rachel.

Michelle (45:32.71) It's your advocates. Yeah. You're just building different kinds of people to come in. we are so obviously at the end of the day, it's we're running businesses. So we do want to make some sort of money, right? But we forget there's a there's a certain balance to it. You can't have all buyers and no advocates. You can't have all followers and like, you know, no buyer, you know, it's a delicate thing. And

Rachel Meltzer (45:50.65) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (45:55.908) Mm-hmm.

Michelle (45:58.878) I just pulled up his stuff because I just saw it yesterday. I really was like, my gosh, it's really because he literally wrote it says I'm gonna send it to you. Wait, is there a chat? There's a chat but

Rachel Meltzer (46:04.857) I want.

There's a chat. I want you to make a series of all the interesting alternative marketing things you see because you have such an eye and I would read all of it. This is great though. This is so helpful and it's examples of the way that you can help your clients strategically and creatively find other ways to market without having to do the perfect funnel tofu bullshit.

Michelle (46:15.166) Dude, I have too many.

This is my-

Michelle (46:34.014) Rachel, did you just create my content strategy for the next two weeks?

Rachel Meltzer (46:36.498) This is your strategy, this is your topic, because it allows you to talk about all of these other things that you're interested in, and also, like, exactly what you're helping people with. It's miraculous, Michelle. This is why we talk.

Michelle (46:47.612) Yeah, my gosh You need to this clip so I remember I can't move for you but That is so true. I'm trying to find things that light me up. I just it's just too autopilot sometimes I forget like I just do this so naturally but it's true a lot of people Okay before I talked about what Tad his name is Tad. Tad said

Rachel Meltzer (46:54.355) I will. I'll send it to you.

Rachel Meltzer (47:06.168) It's...

Michelle (47:14.782) I recently had a call with another creator in Asia and he was just saying he was struggling with courses not doing that hot. Let's be real, like no one wants to do courses anymore. Everyone wants one-on-one or some sort of like self-paced because nobody got time. And we're all tapped out with, you know, elections, climate change, wars. So anyways, I was like, he's been trying to market to

Rachel Meltzer (47:27.756) I am so tired of courses.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (47:38.18) Mm-hmm.

Michelle (47:44.51) trying to get clients in US. I was like, why don't you help US clients or North American clients get into Asian market? That's a whole niche itself. There's a whole market for that. And then we were starting talking about that. He's like, wow, I watched your YouTube video. You're very calm and very slow. In a way of like, you're very empathetic. You're trying to explain things to people. But on this call, he literally was like, you should have just like, you should start a podcast where you just

Rachel Meltzer (47:53.422) Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle (48:12.57) get people to ask you questions and you tell them the answers because he's like you're literally such a quick thinker that can connect so many different dots and give people like unconventional solutions and i'm like i was just like so shook so when you just said that i just all clicked anyways

Rachel Meltzer (48:16.922) Mm.

Rachel Meltzer (48:22.563) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (48:27.886) That'd be so good.

Rachel Meltzer (48:33.454) I think this is also a good example of like the mirror effect that other people have, like solopreneurship is solo. You are alone all the fucking time and you need to make friends that you can talk to about it. like, like flow club was a great way to meet people for us. Like pop clubs, a great way to meet people. Shameless plug. Like I've met friends on LinkedIn. I've met friends on Instagram. I've met friends in person that lived locally to me, whatever it is you need people to talk to, to bounce ideas off of.

Michelle (48:43.1) Yes.

Michelle (49:03.281) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (49:03.562) so that, because like, or even your friends or your family, like ask your family what you obsessively talk about or your friends or like your roommates or something, because I am sure they see things that you don't see. This is always, always, always true, you know?

Michelle (49:15.006) Yes. That is so funny. My partner literally always says, you're a rambler. He's like, you just go on and on. He's like, this is why you can do your YouTube videos in one take.

Rachel Meltzer (49:26.806) Yeah, yeah. And it's like, if you don't know what you want your niche to be or something, like just ask your friend or your partner, like, what do I talk about all the time? What do think I should do? Because they probably know.

Michelle (49:35.0) my gosh. Yes. I think that's, but I think this helps me putting into a golden thread because there is so much I can talk about. You know? That just like, my problem is more like getting the content out because I have so much to say versus most people is like, what do I talk about? Right.

Rachel Meltzer (49:46.679) Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (49:52.985) Yeah.

Can I tell you what I think a headline should be for you? Somewhere on your website. Alternative marketing strategy for Heartlight Creatives.

Michelle (49:59.398) Yes. Yes.

Michelle (50:06.527) my gosh, I love that.

Rachel Meltzer (50:07.93) Because that is like so specific, but also leaves a lot of room for you to play, you know?

Michelle (50:16.636) Okay, can you cut this out too? I'm gonna forget. Okay, wait, let me write it down too. Wait, alternative for our heart-led creatives. That makes so much sense. my gosh, that reminds me of my conversation with Jenny Gritters. Cause she also does things, we're so similar. Now we're talking about maybe we'll collab. Like, I go, we're talking about, like I can do systems or finance, like.

Rachel Meltzer (50:18.682) I didn't write it down

Rachel Meltzer (50:32.132) That's what you're doing.

Rachel Meltzer (50:36.684) Ugh, I love her.

Rachel Meltzer (50:41.527) Ugh, you should.

Michelle (50:46.268) business finance stuff. anyways.

Rachel Meltzer (50:47.982) Yeah, she's the best. Anyway, if anybody's listening and you don't already follow Jenny, should. She's so great.

Michelle (50:52.766) We should tag all of these. We mentioned so many people.

Rachel Meltzer (50:56.37) I know. It's because you're a networker, Michelle.

Michelle (51:00.606) I love it, but thanks for introducing me to her, even though I literally stalked her on threads. And I was like, can you intro me? But yeah, okay, back to Tad. Shout out to Tad, even though I don't know him personally. But he's Canadian. I was just like, that's so cute. I, how was I gonna say this? Thing I send in the chat, I'm gonna read the first part. He literally said,

Rachel Meltzer (51:03.663) Yeah.

I am so glad you did. my god.

nice, there you go.

Michelle (51:29.074) like copywriting and says start with a deal breaker. Most people think that headlines are there to get people to keep reading. I disagree. The headline is there to eliminate almost everyone and literally gave me a light bulb. I was like, this is why I do not like hooks. Like it made so much more sense because that is the attention grabbing. That is the keep reading versus this is so true. Like, do I want you in my world?

Rachel Meltzer (51:46.426) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (51:53.014) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (51:57.678) Yeah, yeah.

Michelle (51:58.214) If you start with something that's polarizing, well polarizing is also a hook. But it made so much sense of why all these marketing that we've been hearing about all these days actually are resonating with a lot of people. Like I think there's people who try it, but they do it begrudgingly because it's the thing to do now. know, reels is the thing to do now.

Rachel Meltzer (52:11.385) Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (52:17.166) Yeah, I mean this is why I don't use hooks. This is why I don't do short form video that is, the only short form video I do is clips of the podcast on YouTube, that's it. I'm not here, I don't like, there are so many, when you are feeling like you don't know the answer, like someone else must know the answer and there's a right answer out there, or like you're insecure or you're nervous or you're feeling a scarcity mindset or some kind of urgency, and you see a hook that says,

Michelle (52:26.536) Mmm.

Rachel Meltzer (52:46.254) five mistakes X, Y, and Z make, or three ways you can do this, or whatever. Those short videos are so fast, it is very rare that those things are actually going to sink in, and you will learn them, and you'll be able to use them. Most of the time when you see videos like that, they're just making you feel bad, and making you wanna buy a product to solve it, because you can watch that video, and it's not gonna actually bring you a solution. Even if the things in that video are helpful,

and the person who made it meant well, generally, at least for me personally, they just made me feel bad. And it kept me stuck because it made me feel like I didn't know what I was doing. Like I used to watch videos all the time that were like, five ways to make your launch better or like three launch mistakes you're making. And I was always like, I'm a horrible launcher. I'm not successful because I'm not selling out. Blah, blah, blah.

Michelle (53:27.123) Yes.

Rachel Meltzer (53:38.21) And instead, when I stopped watching those videos and I treated my launches an experiment and I just said, I'm gonna do everything 10 ways and see what sticks. And then next time I launch, I will take the things that stick and multiply those by two and do that. And then I'll do it over and over and I will iterate and I will get better every time. I went from having one or two people buying my products when I launched to three, four, five, and it slowly gets better and better. And it's more true to me and it's in my voice and it's.

Michelle (54:04.594) Mmm.

Rachel Meltzer (54:06.914) actually working.

Michelle (54:08.87) Yeah, and I think that's why I love places like self stack or even YouTube like places where you can go deeper And I think the trend the trend it's shifting back people are tired of like I think when I see three ways or five mistakes these things it also gives me FOMO and which is a curated FOMO which is like am I making these mistakes? Am I doing these ways and then when you go check in on it? Well, I want to read more

Rachel Meltzer (54:16.302) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (54:28.366) Mm.

Rachel Meltzer (54:34.829) Mm-hmm.

Michelle (54:37.202) There is no more, just buy my course. It's not that simple, but it's just like, how come we're feeding into this machine, algorithm or social media machine that is rewarding us for that, but it's not developing our critical thinking or ability to dive deeper and sit with things? Because this is also feeding into people want quick fixes and people want to make a million dollars tomorrow.

Rachel Meltzer (54:37.39) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle (55:05.874) because they think that's possible because that's what the real problem

Rachel Meltzer (55:07.474) And they want to know everything before they start. And that's what keeps you stuck.

Michelle (55:11.61) Yeah, and I realized it's kind of like buying courses. I was just talking to that person, right? I was just like, people are buying and yeah, it's kind like people don't show up to courses like the completion rate, probably if people are honest.

Rachel Meltzer (55:25.47) 25 % on average is the completion rate.

Michelle (55:28.336) It's like people are like buying for feel I don't know I'm hold on. It's more of feeling safe Is that how I say in english? Sorry, I'm seeing I'm seeing my mandarin word in my head But it's basically saying like they feel okay. It's kind of buying books. You're like it's there on my shelf I'll get to it one day, but I have it now. I'll never get to it. You know, like but it's like

Rachel Meltzer (55:32.386) Silver bullet. They want to fix all their problems. Yeah. Yes.

Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (55:51.985) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Michelle (55:55.646) You just think the knowledge is there, I have it whenever I want it. But you're never gonna get to it. Like, let's be real. Right? I'll be honest, I have a lot of books and I'm just like, I'll get to it eventually. But I realized, no, I just want to buy it because it will make me feel like I'm moving. Also, that's the other thing, reminds me of that motions versus action. It's a lot of motion. We're doing a lot of research. Yes! But you're not.

Rachel Meltzer (55:59.214) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (56:17.306) Yeah, it makes you feel like you're making progress towards something and that you're learning something, but you're not. Yeah. I think that the best way to learn is through experience and through being able to ask your own questions when you are struggling with something so that you can grasp the knowledge. like anything that's more than an hour, you're probably not going to learn anything from. Because it's too much consumption. You need to actually try things in order to learn them.

Michelle (56:31.239) Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (56:49.24) and you need to be able to ask your follow-up questions. And this is why I only do things that are live. Like maybe it's a bad business model, but like this is why I do one-on-one coaching and pop club and nothing else.

Michelle (57:00.638) Yeah, it makes so much more sense. It's more tailored to the person, right? Because those three tips you saw, maybe only one really applies and even so you need to customize it to yourself, but you have no idea to do that. Right? And you probably would be like, I'm a bad human being or bad business owner because I tried it and it doesn't work. you know, but I think there's something to be said with just I know you said trying, but I think it's also knowing

Rachel Meltzer (57:12.122) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (57:20.629) Yeah.

Michelle (57:29.582) what is truly meant for you. I think we, we, I don't want to say this, but I just feel like a lot of us probably have lost the art of like critical thinking. Right?

Rachel Meltzer (57:31.866) Mm.

Rachel Meltzer (57:40.012) It's true, it's true. I mean, I think we don't have to do it as often anymore. Because you can have the answer right away.

Michelle (57:46.942) I think maybe it's because problem solvers were always thinking and that might be why I need to rest because my executive functioning and my natural craft don't mean that. She's like, you're on overdrive. You're thinking so many different things, doing so many different things. But it's also what makes you so good. But you're like, but that's why you need to rest for a while. But I think critical thinking is like, same. It's kind of like when my clients ask me what tools, like which website platform I should use.

Rachel Meltzer (57:58.17) Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (58:06.327) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Michelle (58:16.83) And I guess again corporate habit, but I think this is the one good habit I kept which is I have an Excel sheet. I have all the business requirements on the left, all the different platforms, price points and I could because I'm going to tell everyone here like do not trust comparison pages. They or or they don't tell you all the feet. They are only telling you things that is in their favor so they can get more check marks. Like that's literally what it is.

Rachel Meltzer (58:22.808) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (58:33.702) my god, there are so many hidden fees.

Rachel Meltzer (58:42.35) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Michelle (58:45.928) So when I really wanted to look into like, I think at one point I was looking into like Gumroad, Patreon and stuff. When I pasted their things, I'm like, dang, they're, they don't talk about a lot of the different things. And I'm like, I actually need to know if you do all of these other things. It takes a bit of more work, but I'm like, this is how you objectively not get yourself into like paying for a lot of things you don't need. Or for example, you're looking for coaches. You should create some sort of chart or like,

Rachel Meltzer (58:57.722) Mm.

Yeah. Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (59:10.746) Mm-hmm.

Michelle (59:14.302) to objectively compare and not being like, my gosh, I have FOMO, I need to buy this by midnight to get this bonus. I'm like, no.

Rachel Meltzer (59:20.569) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, also pro tip, if they're actually a good coach and they're trying to coach for a long time, which you should hope your coach is going to do, they will do the thing again. So even if, like, for example, I'm launching one-on-one coaching right now, so I have five spots available, but like, I also offer one-on-one intensives. You can do those any time. I also offer a six-month program. You can do that any time. I also will reopen this in February again.

Like there's always going to be another opportunity. There's no reason, no one is making an offer that is, and putting out all this work to launch and make a sales page and everything and not gonna use the offer again. Like you will have another opportunity. It's okay.

Michelle (59:49.618) Yes.

Michelle (01:00:03.514) Yeah, it's not a pop-up.

Rachel Meltzer (01:00:05.56) And this is why I always email people during my launches and say, literally, no pressure, I will be back. Don't worry about it. I'm always gonna be here for you. Because there's no point. I mean, it's urgency marketing, that's the thing. It's bro marketing, urgency marketing. But if there's no timeline, for me, the reason I do it is because it's a five month contract, so.

Michelle (01:00:14.268) my gosh, more people need to write that!

Yeah

Rachel Meltzer (01:00:28.908) I have openings twice a year and if I fill all five of those spots, I don't have room in my schedule to take other clients unless it's a one-off once in a while and it makes my income more predictable. I know how much money I'm gonna make. But if I didn't have to, I would not be launching. I feel bad putting urgency on it at all.

Michelle (01:00:50.302) think there's a delicate balance between you want to help people keep moving forward because people there are people to be honest who just won't do anything because they're totally paralyzed but if you're

Rachel Meltzer (01:00:55.001) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (01:01:00.068) But also I've had people sign up for my program and go through the entire six months and never do the homework, but still show up every single meeting and be like, I wanna do it, I can do it. And like, I believe in them, they can do it. It's not that they can't, but if they're not prioritizing, there's always something more important. They're too tired. Like, it's just not gonna happen. Or like sometimes they're too scared to actually take the leap at the end of it. Like buying a program, working with a coach is not the silver bullet.

Michelle (01:01:04.434) and not do it.

Michelle (01:01:10.533) my gosh.

Rachel Meltzer (01:01:27.992) Like, you actually do have to put in effort even after you sign up. And it's really unfortunate that that's the case, but it's true.

Michelle (01:01:36.206) my gosh, that totally reminds me of the literally the intention of creating my three month program, right? That you literally helped me looked at. it's, it's called the rebirth. And I really feel like it's, I wanted to create that environment where holding people accountable. guess I take it. I don't know how far you take it. I want to take it a step further and create a sauna for them. Like they built in and built in task because what I found is I use.

Rachel Meltzer (01:01:42.395) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (01:01:53.646) Mm.

Rachel Meltzer (01:01:59.99) I love that.

Michelle (01:02:04.766) A lot of my clients used to be a lot older than me or like moms and parents or like they're doing a full-time thing and doing this. Like there's a lot. I get it. And I'm like, why don't we chunk it down because I naturally just can project manage things based on my past experience in tech, right? I was like, okay, let's just take this one big project or one big launch you have, chunk it down to small pieces, create buffer time, look at your schedule.

Rachel Meltzer (01:02:08.506) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (01:02:20.746) Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Michelle (01:02:32.072) two tasks on Monday, one task on Tuesday, three tasks, and you call it a day. I think as solopreneurs, we have so much like stuff, like a long laundry list, like to-do list. And if we only checked off three things, like, no, I have 10 more things. But I think where I'm finding my delicate balance is, okay, I have a block of time called like for a sauna task. And then I just go and work on that. And then the other times I do other things, right? So every day.

Rachel Meltzer (01:02:42.861) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (01:02:46.616) Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (01:02:54.202) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (01:03:00.431) Mm.

Michelle (01:03:01.436) I don't feel, I'm trying to not to feel too stressed, right? And.

Rachel Meltzer (01:03:04.792) Yeah, yeah. I love that, because I think for you the intention is to help people actually get through things. Where for me the intention is to teach someone how to be a freelancer. If you're going to be a freelancer, you have to be able to manage your tasks yourself. You have to be able to set deadlines for yourself and work through it. So I will sit there and say, let's put it on your calendar together. And I will follow up with you on your due date and make sure it's done. And I make them a prioritized to-do list and tell them how long things are probably going to take. And then I make them put it on their schedule.

Michelle (01:03:14.046) Mmm.

Michelle (01:03:24.168) Mmm.

Michelle (01:03:31.56) Mmm.

Rachel Meltzer (01:03:34.392) and show up to coaching the next week with it done. Yeah, yeah.

Michelle (01:03:34.578) It's very similar. Yours is built into a calendar. I think the thing I realized with calendars, and I have stuff on my Google Calendar too, but I find is that I can't shift things around as easily because in Asana, there's the calendar view. So you can see all the different tasks. It's the same. Yeah, very similar.

Rachel Meltzer (01:03:44.154) Mm.

Rachel Meltzer (01:03:51.704) yeah, that's why I like using Notion. Because you can just slide the task to another, yeah, yeah, it's just like a song. That's why I used to use a song before Notion and I loved it. But I like Notion because it's a little more fluid. But yeah, it's very similar, yeah.

Michelle (01:04:03.4) But there's, you can store your documents. It's a bit more practical. Like there's more things. But I feel like for people, I feel like with these people, they're already too busy. They cannot like do their own ocean. So Asana is-

Rachel Meltzer (01:04:14.638) Well, with Notion, you have to like learn Notion. An Asana is like, you can just use it. Yeah.

Michelle (01:04:19.582) And you can just pop in tasks and I always tell I've actually trained a Hawaiian mental health clinic for like LGBTQ I trained their team in one hour because I told them I'm not gonna be with you guys forever. Not a bad way It's just like I want to teach you how to fish and Because they've been using trying to use a sauna and they just cannot they they just don't know how one hour after they're all

Rachel Meltzer (01:04:30.688) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It's just the reality.

Michelle (01:04:46.75) They can make templates, they can do their own tasks, they can see, it makes so much sense now. Like, I literally like, if you're gonna record a podcast, literally write out all the tasks and then assign people and then templatize that so then you just duplicate the template. They're like, my god. So like things like that, right? This is what I wanna teach and help people with because tech tools are meant to help you. People are always telling me like, it's overwhelming. I'm like, it's really not. Like, if I just teach you the basics,

Rachel Meltzer (01:04:51.578) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (01:05:08.858) Mm-hmm.

Michelle (01:05:15.396) You don't need to know all the features Asana has. Just these basic ones. Move your tasks around. Feel more at ease. Like, and get things done. And because I feel like that's a problem a lot of people are facing. Even not solo printers, just business owners. There's too much to do. And we have

Rachel Meltzer (01:05:18.113) Mm. Mm.

Rachel Meltzer (01:05:23.77) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (01:05:32.822) Mm-hmm. And there's too many ways, like we just talked about all the different ways you can do marketing. And it's so much easier to like make that plan with somebody who knows all of these options and can just like help you simplify it and actually accomplish it rather than sitting in the motion where you're just doing research and feeling bad about yourself and looking at all your mistakes and saying, you'll do it later.

Michelle (01:05:45.51) Yes!

Michelle (01:05:59.102) Yes. my gosh, I feel like every time I come on here, I'm talking to you, it's like a therapy and coaching session for myself. It's a good reminder, Rachel.

Rachel Meltzer (01:06:08.602) Yeah, yeah, no, I love what you're doing. I hope people go check it out. It's on your website, right?

Michelle (01:06:16.668) Yeah, so in order to not stress myself out, it's supposed to start next week, but obviously I haven't promoted it so no one signed up yet, but I'm just like, I'm push it to January. Like that's the flexibility, right? Like to move things around.

Rachel Meltzer (01:06:25.754) Yeah, have you thought about making it rolling? Because you could just take, is it a cohort or is it just one-on-one? Because if it's just one-on-one.

Michelle (01:06:35.326) I'm doing one-on-one sessions and group masterclass, which is training sessions like setting up a sauna or like how to build landing page. I want to get more technical because I've heard like a lot of people do group coaching and it's a lot of what's it called? Hot seat coaching. Like people just talk and that might not be valuable. Some people just want to learn things. So I think depends on what the group wants. But in the meantime, I am thinking of a mini series of these like

Rachel Meltzer (01:06:41.786) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (01:06:57.37) Mm-hmm.

Michelle (01:07:02.814) quick 30 minutes and maybe 15 minutes Q &A, so maybe 45 minutes and just teaching all of these things. So it's a bit of a taster of what the three month full program will be like. I'm feeling more called to do that in the interim, which I think will be more fun. Let's see how it goes. But yes.

Rachel Meltzer (01:07:12.034) Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (01:07:17.487) Mm-hmm.

I love it.

Yay. Well, where can people find you online?

Michelle (01:07:27.678) Find me online. Literally a lot of different places. Okay, so LinkedIn, Instagram, threads, if you can remand her in. YouTube, Substack. My website is a bit of a Frankenstein right now. I have people like, so do you still do these foundation stuff for SaaS? I'm like, no, no, no. I need to change my homepage and all that. So plug for Rachel's website building.

Rachel Meltzer (01:07:30.508) Hahaha!

Rachel Meltzer (01:07:38.252) Hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (01:07:49.826) Yeah.

Michelle (01:07:56.218) You're doing that soon, right?

Rachel Meltzer (01:07:56.376) yeah, we have a website building workshop. Yeah, it's in November. Let me actually, let me check the calendar. Yeah, we're doing a two hour workshop, so I will be teaching people how to make a website with Notion and Super, but if you have a different kind of website, you can just come for accountability and co-working. It's going to mostly just be like co-working and you can ask questions or bounce ideas off of the rest of Pop Club. Let me see where it is. Where is it? It's on here somewhere.

Michelle (01:08:24.254) Yeah, I need to definitely rebound.

Rachel Meltzer (01:08:26.261) It's...

Rachel Meltzer (01:08:30.426) Well, it's not on my calendar. I need to check. Yeah, I spent like two years being like, I need to fix my website, and then I fixed it in like two days with Notion and Super, and it feels so much better now, and I get so many compliments now, which is really nice.

Michelle (01:08:30.492) or long overdue.

Rachel Meltzer (01:08:48.25) Where is it? I thought it was in November. Am I going crazy? build your website. November 2nd, Tuesday, November 2nd at 10 a.m. Eastern time. So yeah, there'll be part tutorial, part co-working. November 12th, November 12th. I'm a clown. my god, I saw two. I saw the number two. I'm so crazy. November 12th, 10 a.m.

Michelle (01:08:51.612) tonight.

Michelle (01:08:58.27) November 2nd.

That says Saturday? I was like, you're doing stuff on

Rachel Meltzer (01:09:11.598) build your website. It'll be in Pop Club, so you do have to join Pop Club or Pop Club comes for free with one-on-one Express and one-on-one Accelerator, my one-on-one coaching programs that I'm watching right now.

Michelle (01:09:24.284) Yeah, we're both launching things. But you know what I've been thinking like launches is more like, I feel like there is some sort of stress around it seems the stress around content creation. Like, I'm thinking now is just I'm just sharing my offerings to the world. And

Rachel Meltzer (01:09:26.828) It's great.

Rachel Meltzer (01:09:36.322) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (01:09:42.114) Yeah, I used to feel really stressed about it because it was the pressure to like sell out. And I put my self worth on it and my like financial, like I'm not completely entirely relying on this financially. It's just like a part of my income. It's so much more fun when you're just like, I'm gonna talk about my offers. I'm gonna try to attract people that are interested in me that are on the same wavelength as me, rather than being like, I have to do all these things. I have to sell out, has to be perfect, blah, blah, blah, blah, know?

Michelle (01:09:47.987) Yeah.

Michelle (01:09:57.15) Mm-hmm.

Michelle (01:10:09.618) It's letting go of like this concept I've heard recently, which is like what is versus what should be. It's very Buddhist, I feel like, but it's like to be a lot, not a lot, everything in life is neutral. It's when humans start adding meanings and cultural references, context, all these things onto it, then we have things like good and bad, right?

Rachel Meltzer (01:10:17.56) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (01:10:25.423) Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (01:10:34.874) Mm.

Michelle (01:10:35.486) Success and failures like you know the duality of things but to be honest, it's not and that's a lot of our own mental suffering like some mental sufferings as it not mental health issues, but like Like the problems we create. Yeah, like the problems would create for ourselves. It's our brain playing a game with us It's like there's truly no problems. We're creating all these problems in our brain so we can solve it. It's all a game like

Rachel Meltzer (01:10:49.401) Stress.

Rachel Meltzer (01:11:02.392) Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle (01:11:03.718) It's like we think things should be a certain way and if it isn't then we suffer because we're just like Kind of what I'm doing now now have to rest because it's not what it should be But I think that's been a bit liberating and I need that to sit with me a bit longer But I just thought that is so true like humans are the only species like do animals think about this animals don't but then we can't Animals just like I just need to it. I'm gonna lay on grass You know

Rachel Meltzer (01:11:11.652) Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Rachel Meltzer (01:11:26.127) Right?

Michelle (01:11:32.104) But their world is a bit different from ours. So, you know, there's no careers or achievements like that they need to do.

Rachel Meltzer (01:11:35.172) Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (01:11:39.182) Yeah, yeah, that's so true. well, it so good talking to you. Thank you for coming on the show. We have to do this again, because we could talk for like five hours straight if anyone would let us. Our own schedules. Yeah. man. Well, I hope people check out your three month program if they want some alternative marketing strategies. And.

Michelle (01:11:42.204) Yeah.

Michelle (01:11:50.622) Yeah, like we just talk about so many different things. See, this is what I mean. What do I talk about? Too many.

Yeah.

Michelle (01:12:06.001) Thank you.

Rachel Meltzer (01:12:07.458) Yeah, follow Michelle wherever you get your social media. And if you want to hang out with Michelle, she hosts co-working sessions inside Pop Club all the time, literally every week. So definitely join Pop Club if you want more of Michelle.

Michelle (01:12:12.326) everyone.

Michelle (01:12:21.99) Yeah, Monday at 1 p.m. Eastern, usually. And we do money dates. Did you talk about money dates? Yeah.

Rachel Meltzer (01:12:27.256) Yeah, money dates. Once a month. We all just show up and talk about our goals and do bookkeeping and budgeting and setting our rates and all that stuff. The scary stuff. Money's like the scariest thing to me. So I love money dates because they make it more fun.

Michelle (01:12:35.74) All the fun stuff.

Michelle (01:12:43.442) We should reframe that so you don't keep thinking.

Rachel Meltzer (01:12:46.234) I know it's such a work in progress. I'm really trying here. man. All right. Well, thanks for coming on the show, Michelle.

Michelle (01:12:52.222) Yeah, but...

Thank you for having me.

Rachel Meltzer (01:12:57.73) you